Dream Car Engine-Swap Question.

Kurt_ · Post by **Kurt_** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:48 am

Okay, this is not likely to happen for many years, if at all. But I figure if anyone knows about hybrid technology, it'd be a few of you guys, not some motorheads at some car forum (Why go hybrid when you can go V12 yo?!).

Say I have a V6 engine that is in need of replacing (think restoring a classic car). In the end, would it be more cost efficient to replace that engine with another V6/V8, or a hybrid V6, which probably costs more but will double my fuel efficiency.

Of course, that brings up these questions: Are internal combustion engines and the newer hybrid engines directly replaceable, assuming they have the right mounts and stuff. Also, I know hybrid engines (hybrid being gas/electric) have plenty of programming to do. It's probably pretty hard, right? I probably couldn't pull it off?

DK · Post by DK » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:12 am

First thing, what classic car is it?? Hard to give you any details about fitting until I know what the engine is going in. Hybrid engines are a lot bigger as they have the electric motor aswell as the petrol engine, not forgetting the batteries to power the motor.

Also, where do you drive? You'll only be using the motor at low speeds, so mainly urban driving.

I'm afraid to say that if you want to fit the hybrid engine that a total rebuild of the engine bay will be needed. The engine will be of different design/shape to what's already in there, so the bay will need altered to allow the propshaft to attach to the engine and a rebuild of the radiator system will be needed.

Unless you're an mechanic I'd advise you not to try this. If Saving money and being generally hippy is your goal, have you thought of converting your car to run off ethanol or cooking oil (diesel engine only)?

I like cars by the way

Kurt_ · Post by **Kurt_** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:15 am

Yeah, I didn't think it'd work out too well. Any fuel-saving tips for normal engines? Mods that can be done, etc?

Hows about hose Pulstar capacitor-driven spark plugs? They seem really good, but I can see those capacitors dying really fast.

DK · Post by DK » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:25 am

All I can say to you is clean the air filter or replace it, keep your tyres at the right pressure, clear all the useless crap out the car to keep weight down and drive sensibly.

A little mod you can do though is add a bit of acetone when you fill your tank with petrol. Takes a bit of experimenting with but it works.

http://www.lubedev.com/smartgas/additive.htm

Wow, those spark plugs look interesting

Can't imagine a classic V6's economy being improved much by it. Only 6% increase on an average car.

Post by **bicostp** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:35 am

I'd probably swap the 220ci Chrysler slant-6 in our old D200 with a 440 V8. Probably throw in a modified transfer case to give me 12 gears to work with. (Straight through for carrying stuff, higher than stock for road use, and 2x stock for highways. The 4 speed in it is geared really deep, because it's the smallest engine they stuck in that particular truck.) It's no slouch now at over 200 HP, but that's not fun enough.

Plus the engine is the only thing keeping it from being a 1.5 ton truck (It's a 3/4 ton.)

Kurt_ wrote:Say I have a V6 engine that is in need of replacing (think restoring a classic car). In the end, would it be more cost efficient to replace that engine with another V6/V8, or a hybrid V6, which probably costs more but will double my fuel efficiency.

It depends on what car we're talking about here. If it's a real classic, or a 70s sled like our truck, don't even think about hybrid systems. They're just too heavy. If it's a muscle car or a base version of one, don't ruin the whole point of having one by running a hybrid system on it.

If you're worried about fuel economy, go with a regular V6 and a transmission that lets you glide. That is, when you take your foot off the gas it doesn't slow down, like the ones in most 4 cylinder cars and imports do. Our V6 Grand Am glides a lot and can get over 30 MPG on the highway with cruise control.

If you're really concerned about fuel economy, get a Geo Metro with a manual transmission and take out most of the interior, the spare tire, and other parts that aren't legally or mechanically necessary. Less weight = less effort needed by the engine = more MPG! (Apparently every 100 pounds removed will add about 2% to your mileage.)

You could even take it one step further and completely replace the original engine with an electric motor! <a href="http://www.evconvert.com/article/larrys-ev">this guy did.</a> (EDIT: <a href="http://forkenswift.com/">So did they.</a>)

EDIT: This electric car stuff is actually kind of interesting, though impractical for my needs. Maybe someday (when I have money), an electric go-kart could be a fun project...

DK · Post by DK » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:44 am

So did these dudes

http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/CONCEPTCA ... er-NEW.htm

That's what I dream of buying one day. I'm a big hippy at heart so this is my ultimate ride

vskid · Post by **vskid** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:00 pm

If you're not trying to get girls with the car, you could make it super aerodynamic.
For hybrid, you're pretty much stuck using the system out of an existing hybrid. So you're better off just getting a Prius.
Or, just get a small, manual car with a 4 cylinder engine. My dad has gotten at least 35mpg with an '87 Ford Escort, '02 Ford Focus, and '97 Honda Civic, all of which were 4-doors while driving mostly highway.

Post by **Triton** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:30 pm

hybred cars are a waste of money. sure they get decent MPG but the technology they are currently using gives them about the same MPG range as a geo metro with the 1.3l 4 cylinder. the brand new civic hybred gets a combined 42-45mpg city/highway the geo 42-45 city 44-48mpg highway, even more with a manual with the 1.0l 3banger and you can get a geo in good shape for probably a tenth the price of a hybred

as to improving fuel milage on regular cars with fuel injection check the O2 sensor, sparkplugs injectors make sure your PCV system is clean and other regular maintenance stuff and it will help a LOT. for carbed cars switching to smaller jets or a 2 barrel will get you better MPG but sacrifice power, running seafoam through the carb and in the fuel on any car will also help and things like clean air filters anf fuel filters also helpsl. for cars with a clutch fan (attached to the engine off of the crankshaft) replacing it with an electric fan can improve performance and fuel milage as well

and just to show off a bit here is the latest performance enhancement i got for my volvo (have electric fan and pipes hoses etc on the way as well) a brand spanking new intercooler!

as an afterthought: dont get me wrong i care for the environment its extra technology that is supposed to help but gives no real gain over existing technology or technology that COULD HELP but they refuse to empliment that makes me angry, i fully support alternative fuels and electric vehicles but hybrid technology as it is is stupid. hydrogen and ethenol arent the answer either. only time will tell what new technologys come out i guess

Post by **Triton** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:20 pm

ya double post but this concerns kurts questions about the swap

sure you could do it but i couldnt picture it getting done for any less than literally the cost of a whole new vehicle and a TON of fabrication and a few months work. there is A LOT that goes into just a regular engine swap say from a 4/6 cyl to a v8 like new motor mounts, modified cross member and front suspension steering geometry trans mounts adapter plates firewall modification etc, then going from regular carb'd v8 to hybred you have probably a few literal miles of wire to deal with plus removing the harness from one vehicle and swapping all the hardware and everything over to the new vehicle plus modifing the stock one with the electric drive motors regen brake batteries and so many other comlex systems i just cant see it being done on any sort of reasonable budget plus like i outlined above it just really isnt worth it, a properly set up and tuned fuel injected smallblock V8 can get well north of 25 or 30mpg if you dont floor it all the time! pretty common for the lt1 powered buick wagons and such to get abut 24mpg highway with 350ci V8 just imagine what a well built tuned fuel injected straight six like a 235 or something would get! and lots of toarks and horsepowa too

Kurt_ · Post by **Kurt_** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:41 pm

Yeah, I couldn't see it being easy or worth it.

But a V8 that gets 30 mpg? You're crazy to think that is possible. They get 20, absolute maximum.

And my driving style is very jerky. I like to rush out of stops, especially when turning (due to concern of being hit by oncoming traffic. It's a paranoia I have, I don't trust other drivers). And when a stop sign comes up, I generally stop rather quickly, not insanely quickly, but maybe in the last 100-150 feet or so. I'm not an energy-conscious driver, you could say.

Post by **Triton** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:58 pm

But a V8 that gets 30 mpg? You're crazy to think that is possible. They get 20, absolute maximum.

lol then you would be wrong, just because its a v8 doesnt mean north of 25mpg isnt possible

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/12949.shtml shows 24mpg highway, with the newer northstar v8s and so forth you can average in the 20s with a smaller displacement v8 im sure 30mpg is possible, or a really well tuned 350 with fuel injection balanced blueprinted lowered compression and so forth could get great mpg. of course smaller engines are going to be better lol

and yeah your driving style is about the least fuel efficient you can get! best mpg is slow accel to speed no hard accelerations or breaking cruising at a constant speed etc which is HORRIBLY DULL

of course most of my cars get terrible milage anyway (1954 oldsmobile with a 350 v8, 86 elcamino with another 350v8 and my 2.3l turbocharged volvo which is a lot better than the other two but still only 24-27 at best)

Post by **bicostp** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:20 pm

Kurt_ wrote:And my driving style is very jerky. I like to rush out of stops, especially when turning (due to concern of being hit by oncoming traffic. It's a paranoia I have, I don't trust other drivers). And when a stop sign comes up, I generally stop rather quickly, not insanely quickly, but maybe in the last 100-150 feet or so. I'm not an energy-conscious driver, you could say.

That, more than any other factor, is eating away your gas mileage.

Giev it enough gas to get moving but don't floor it.

If you see a stop light turn red up the road, slow down 5 or so MPH and if the conditions allow coast to the light. The idea is to minimize the amount of idling you do. (Stationary idling = 0 MPG)

Depending on the car, you might get better mileage running Plus or Super Unleaded than the cheap stuff. I'll use our Grand Am for example. It gets about 26 MPG on 87 octane, and 31 MPG on 93 octane, no driving adjustments. It actually works out cheaper to run it on Super. My Saturn, on the other hand, gets about 36 MPG no matter what you put in it. (I can get over 40 on a fresh oil change if I put a couple extra pounds of air in each tire, blow out the air filter with the compressor, and do a full wash-wax-RainX job. Not too bad for a 1.9L SOHC I4 with an automatic.

)

You definitely want to keep the car properly maintained. Do the oil every 3300 miles, clean the filter, keep your tires inflated properly, purge all the crap you don't need (even remove the rear seats in a station wagon if you can, don't need them, and have a place to store them), keep everything lubed up, and replace the plug wires if the car's over 10 years old. Regular maintenance stuff makes a difference.

But a V8 that gets 30 mpg? You're crazy to think that is possible. They get 20, absolute maximum.

Not necessarily. You have to remember differences in driving style and gearing.

vskid · Post by **vskid** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:23 pm

Kurt_ wrote:But a V8 that gets 30 mpg? You're crazy to think that is possible. They get 20, absolute maximum.

Depends on what its in and how you drive. Our '02 Yukon XL (big SUV) has a 5.3l V8 and gets 17mpg highway when its loaded with people and cargo, might be able to reach 18mpg with just a driver and no traffic problems. You throw that engine in a car and you're sure to get 20mpg.
And if you want power but not a bigger engine or less mpg, turbochargers and superchargers both give you more power for about the same amount of gas (though you'll have to get premium octane gas).

@kurt: What kind of car do you drive and what kind of mileage do you get?

Post by **Triton** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:24 pm

gearing yes! was going to mention that, higher gear ratios in the rear end can help your fuel milage a TON, for example my oldsmoible has the stock tall highway gearing in the rear end so i can be going 55mph at maybe 1500rpm! at idle spead i can do 20mph or better!

Kurt_ · Post by **Kurt_** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:34 pm

So you want me to drive like a grandma? Bah, that's no fun!

No matter what, my first car will undoubtedly be a 4 cyl. Camry. Probably 15+ years old. I know the newer ones get amazing mileage, even the non-hybrid ones. The older ones...not so much, but better than some other cars.

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