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Post by SonyPortableizer » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:56 am

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Re: Question on Holocaust.

Post by Squalid » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:47 am

I don't think you need a Nazi to admit that the holocaust was real, there are MANY MANY MANY pieces of evidence to prove it happened.

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Re: Question on Holocaust.

Post by Michaelthurston » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:38 pm

Hes not asking if the Holocaust happened, hes asking if there was actually a Nazi that Admitted to killing masses of people. Most denied involvement, heck most even say nothing happened.
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Re: Question on Holocaust.

Post by thewise1 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:58 pm

1 piece of evidence is that there are still people who have the number tattoos from concentration camps, nasty stuff.
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Re: Question on Holocaust.

Post by Negative_Creep » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:54 pm

No, they constantly deny any involvement in the holocaust.
Some go as far to say it never happened.

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Re: Question on Holocaust.

Post by Metallica Man X » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:10 pm

OMG...don't get me started on WWII stuff...darn, I've started anyway...well, here we go!!

I think it depends what kind of holocaust you're talking about. If you're trying to prove a planned mass extermination of Jewish people, then you can't. There never was a documented plan for that, nor were there any orders ever issued for that.

HOWEVER, there was an order issued near the end of the war (Hitler's aptly named "final Solution") to cull masses of prisoners in the camps.

But why was the order issued, you ask?

It had nothing to do with that aryan junk, that's for sure.

HISTORY LESSON!

At the time, round the clock allied bombing was constantly destroying supply routes and convoys, severely limiting what the camps received to sustain the people there (not to mention destroying the German infrastructure). As a result, prisoner starvation became common as commanders were forced to choose between feeding their prisoners and their Troops (even with that, the troops were still very malnourished tho). In addition to the starvation, disease was running amok from the malnutrition of all the personelle.

So, an order was issued to begin culling those least likely to survive (which unfortunately was a very large number of the prisoners).

They could have released them, Buuut....Do you honestly think those Nazi's weasels would be willing to release a load of possible security risks? Plus, not to sound cold, but it's unlikely that they would've survived for very long anyway (they were the least likely to survive, after all). leaving them more suffering as they would've slowly starved to death alone in the wild.

Another factor you have to keep in mind is that a lot of people were killed, yes...but they weren't just Jews. There were mentally handicapped that were eliminated, there were just as many Croats, Slavs, and Soviets as well. It's important to note that any and all communists were regarded as being just as "inferior" as Jews to the Nazis, so many didn't receive regular POW treatment, and wound up in those camps.

So with that, the classical Jewish Extermination Holocaust being planned out by psychopaths hell-bent on mass genocide idea is garbage.

The worst part tho, is that it all could've been EASILY prevented....as allied forces KNEW about all the camps, they KNEW that their supplies were dwindling, and they KNEW that all the stationed troops were very weak...all WELL BEFORE the killing orders were issued....stuff like that really steams me, let me tell ya...

I'm merely stating an opinion now, but from what I can figure; the whole holocaust idea was concocted up by the allies to help demonize the enemy--what better way to motivate your troops, than to make their opponents appear as total evil to them? Plus, it served as a nice cover for the fact that it was the allied bombing that was causing most of those deaths to happen in the first place...

I'll do some surfing around the internets to find you some net sources for this information that I've just posted.....as most of my sources are the piles of books I have sitting around, as well as many old books chillin at the local public library (REAL BOOKS FOR THE WIN!!!), not to mention stories from my Grandpa Al who served in Army and had actually been to one of the camps during that time.
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Re: Question on Holocaust.

Post by gamemasterAS » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:53 pm

Metallica Man X:

What really gets me is all the stuff they never taught us in history class. Like the Japanese, we tried to paint it like the worst thing they did was Pearl Harbor. Things like what they did in China and Unit 741 were completely ignored. Like how in the US you hear its the US who won the war, when in all reality a big part of it was the USSR. So much of the history is lost and manipulated.

If you haven't read it I would recommend Howard Zinn's A peoples history of the United States, I'm sure you would love it.
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Re: Question on Holocaust.

Post by hailrazer » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:15 pm

The mass murders were happening from the first days of the Concentration Camps. The mass murders did not just happen at the end of the war.

This has been documented by thousands of eye witnesses in the camps and around them, including my wife's mother and her sisters (not Jews, Czechoslovakian)

Another source which has been used has been Jehovah's Witnesses. They were also attacked by Germany and sent to the camps. They were given the purple triangles in the camps. And as Jehovah's Witnesses are know for telling the truth, their eye witness reports are pretty much considered rock solid.

And there have been SS soldiers who have admitted to it, just not any high ranking officers.

But the truth of the matter is that the winners of a War determine how it is told. But the Story almost always has a bit of truth behind it.
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Re: Question on Holocaust.

Post by Metallica Man X » Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:32 pm

I'm not saying lots of peeps weren't murdered before then, I'm simply referring to the point were the most people were taken out all at once--the point that most tend to refer to as "the holocaust".

There's no doubt that the atrocities occurred...the real question is...why were they allowed to happen?

Now THAT would be something to do a history report on! It'd really dig down into some dark depths of allied command, that's for sure.

Actually, I think I'm gonna start digging into that concept myself. Although, I somehow doubt I'll find much...many of those people in command have long since passed on, and many of their records are probably still classified (Roswell is still classified, even tho apparently nothing happened :lol:).....
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Re: Question on Holocaust.

Post by hailrazer » Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:58 pm

Metallica Man X wrote:I'm not saying lots of peeps weren't murdered before then, I'm simply referring to the point were the most people were taken out all at once--the point that most tend to refer to as "the holocaust".

There's no doubt that the atrocities occurred...the real question is...why were they allowed to happen?

Now THAT would be something to do a history report on! It'd really dig down into some dark depths of allied command, that's for sure.

Actually, I think I'm gonna start digging into that concept myself. Although, I somehow doubt I'll find much...many of those people in command have long since passed on, and many of their records are probably still classified (Roswell is still classified, even tho apparently nothing happened :lol:).....
Oh I mis-understood what you were saying.

Yes it would be interesting to see what the "real" reasons behind the mass murders.

It seems in the books and interviews of SS soldiers that I have read and listened to, that the soldiers were about 50/50 split on their real support of the treatment of Jews and others this way.

Most went along with it because of fear of repercussions, but it seems that others were hateful and enjoyed it. And it seems as if Hitler enjoyed hearing about their treatment according to close advisers.

The truth, maybe we'll never know. But the real truth is that it was terrible and the soldiers and people of that country should have stood up and said no.
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Re: Question on Holocaust.

Post by martyg » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:21 pm

Metallica Man X wrote:I'm not saying lots of peeps weren't murdered before then, I'm simply referring to the point were the most people were taken out all at once--the point that most tend to refer to as "the holocaust".
The point "most tend to refer to as holocaust" is something my family and close family friends actually lived through, and yes, I had a great uncle who helped liberate one of the concentration camps as well. And making comments on "the classical Jewish Extermination Holocaust being planned out by psychopaths hell-bent on mass genocide idea is garbage" comes off as childish, ill informed, and offensive. There were two classes of camps, work camps like Dachau (such as the ones you're referring to that came under orders of liquidation towards the end) and literal extermination cams (Vernichtungslager), which were set up for the express purpose of killing any and all arrivals. These were camps like Auschwitz-Birkenau, Chełmno, Bełżec, Majdanek, Sobibór, and Treblinka, usually directly manned by the SS. Nobody in their right mind has ever denied that there were plenty of other groups as well rounded up and targeted for extermination, including gypsies, gays, political subversives, mentally disabled, and any other "undesirables". However, the Jews, under Nationalsozialismus, were specifically hoisted as the main target. Most of the garbage you spouted and theorized, specifically fall under the same ideas of the "Holocaust Denier" category. Which is not surprising given the high German and Polish ethnic background in Wisconsin with a strong history of such crap. My family even had to experience the "No dogs or Jews allowed" signs in the Milwaukee area that were frequently put up by property owners who didn't want either. Ralph Baer lived through the early stages of it all directly, escaping just before Kristallnacht. He has some experiences to share as well.

But then if you feel the need to discuss theory of yours in person at the MGC, I'd be happy to oblige.



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Re: Question on Holocaust.

Post by martyg » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:29 pm

SonyPortableizer wrote:Is there any quote where a nazi admits to the holocaust, what they did, or anything of that variation? If anyone knows of one it would be great. (Not that it was great, finding the quote would be great) im trying to prove the holocaust was real for a history project and this would be amazing evidence
Contact the Holocaust museum in DC, they'd have most of the resources you'd need for your project.
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Re: Question on Holocaust.

Post by weaponepsilon » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:52 pm

I am not of Jewish origin, but I do have some Prussian ancestry. Along my Paternal grandmother's family, the family was sent into the salt mines. Only one survived, that would be my great grandfather. I view anyone with anti-human or ethnocentric ideals as trash that should be culled themselves. There is only one race; HUMAN. We are all derived from different gene pools, no one is pure. Thats a joke.
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Re: Question on Holocaust.

Post by Metallica Man X » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:10 pm

My apologies. I honestly didn't mean any offense. My choice of words were pretty poor it would seem. But then, this a touchy subject for many, and it's hard not to sound offensive with anything that can be said, no matter how you say it. Again, my most humble apologies to you and all others who may read what I posted and feel upset by it.

Which is not surprising given the high German and Polish ethnic background in Wisconsin with a strong history of such crap
Yeah, you nailed my ancestry on the head right there (germ/pol)....I had relatives on BOTH sides of the conflict for sure...I know that one of my great-great uncles was an SS officer...not much is known beyond that tho, and I also had at least one other great-great uncle who served in the Waffen SS fighting against the Soviets in Poland after they invaded.

Yeah....I have a crazy family background to say the least...
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Re: Question on Holocaust.

Post by martyg » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:19 pm

Metallica Man X wrote:My apologies. I honestly didn't mean any offense. My choice of words were pretty poor it would seem. But then, this a touchy subject for many, and it's hard not to sound offensive with anything that can be said, no matter how you say it. Again, my most humble apologies to you and all others who may read what I posted and feel upset by it.
Apology accepted, let's move on. It's a touchy subject, but inconsistencies can be addressed (and they should be) and the subjects can be broached in a much more scholarly way. I'm certainly not against discussion of it. But if you're seriously interested in research and discussion of this subject, for future reference when you present things based on your personal research and opinion you might wish to state "In my research I've found that..." and "In my opinion", rather than the type of absolutes.

For example, I think the 4 million Jews number is inaccurate in and of itself and could be more or less taking everything in to account. Same with the numbers of other "undesireables" sent for extermination. The Nazi's were actually very accurate in their record keeping for the camps, mainly due to the well known German efficiency and accuracy (there's a reason German planes during the war and later German cars are known for this). Going so far as to use IBM tabulation equipment for keeping track of the processing in the camps (something that came back to bite IBM later). Even then, there was just a constant stream of people to these camps first from Germany and later from other areas that tabulations were towards the lower end of actual processing. There were efforts by the SS to destroy records as the allies were getting closer, which included people in the work related camps that were still left, since they were considered "evidence" or "living records" (hence the orders at the end you mentioned). Remember, efficiency dictated you refer to them more as items being processed or liquidated rather than killing a quota of Jews, Gypsies, gays, or what have you. That was the reason for the tattooing as well. Luckily, we know some bare minimum figures from records such as the Treblinka death camp processing a minimum of 700,000 Jews and Gypsies alone. But then you also have the period before the camps were set up (which was also repeated for a short time during the abandoning of some of the camps), where mass executions and burials by firing squads (death squads) were done - which are to hard to get an accurate count on, and you're just limited to knowing locations of some of these mass burials and large round estimates of how many bodies are contained in them given various measurements. The Nazi's also did that tactic to general populaces in towns they sought to take over, particularly in Russia and France.

As far as why nobody did anything about it? From what I know, US intelligence knew about it (there's plenty of now declassified documents, aerial photos, etc.) as did FDR, most of the world knew about it as well. There was a lot going on at the time with many of the "undesirables" trying to escape Germany and the surrounding countries by the boat loads only to be turned back to certain death by the countries unwilling to host them - including the US. As far as the US, before the war we were in a period of what's termed isolationism. The war in Europe were other people's problems, not the US's, the US has to worry about itself - i.e. we're a fortress. FDR wanted to do something, but it was against public sentiment. In fact, we had to be dragged kicking and screaming in by both the attack on Pearl Harbor and other US interests by the Japanese, and the declaration of war with the US by Germany on December 11th (yes, they declared war on the US first, not us on them). To give a local example of the type of climate the US was in at the time before the war - there were actual Nazi marches here in Milwaukee at the Bavarian in grounds all through the late 30's in support of Nazi Germany. Public, "patriotic", in the open marches like you see here on the 4th of July or what you'd see in the old Nazi films. There were rallies for them in Hollywood (including notable support by actors like Errol Flynn). And there were noted and open anti-semitism at the time (just as there was publicly open racism down south). So given all that, existence of camps alone wasn't going to sway overall public opinion for the need to enter the war. Once we did enter the war, military targets were the premium. It wasn't until troops started getting to the camps, saw the ovens, the mass piles of bodies, the conditions, etc., etc. that the stories started getting out publicly and the words genocide started on the public conscience. Stories had come out before of course from people escaping, but now here were US, British, and other soldiers (the average Joe's) seeing it and verifying it for themselves. That's when public sentiment towards indifference started to change, and got even worse as more came to light during the war trials afterwords.
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