Serial-to-usb-to-usb hard drive = plausible jury rig?

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Rymel
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Serial-to-usb-to-usb hard drive = plausible jury rig?

Post by Rymel » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:32 am

in light of the recent gamecube disc drive-to-hard drive mod, and the solid state hard drive psp mod, it got me thinking again of an idea i had years ago that never panned out - directly hooking up a hard drive to a psone or pstwo. now before anyone says it, i'm well aware of hdloader/hdadvance. why am i ignoring these options? they take away psone emulation. sorry, but if i'm gonna go through all the trouble of making a totally enclosed portable ps2, i'm doing it right, not half functional.

now the problem i continually ran into over the years was always the same - i couldn't figure out how to interface a 40-pin ide to the playstation's serial ribbon, which...had a whole lot less wires. looking at these intermediary boards had me thinking of using one of those to hook up an hdd to the optical drive ribbon. the problem then came...i had no idea where to begin.

so it hit me -
  • -desolder the ribbon connector off the mainboard
    -solder in new wires and a serial port
    -hook it up to a serial-to-usb adapter
    -then hook up a usb hard drive
it seems like it'd work, but i'm here to see if i'm missing something. if it starts to boot and all goes as planned...it'd hit the hard drive, and the proverbial wall. but that's where software comes into play.

now i ask ye wise men of benheck.com forums...is this feasible/plausible, or am i totally talking out of my butt?

this post was originally a lot longer and detailed, til i realized someone could totally rip it off and claim it as theirs...
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Post by Rymel » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:26 pm

so...does anybody have any input, or does everyone just think this is stupid?

either that or nobody understands and just wonders why i don't go to hdloader...awesome. i'd really appreciate some kind of input on this before i try to rip one apart. but it's looking like i'm on my own.
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Post by tom61 » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:32 pm

Serial-to-usb adapters don't work in reverse.

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Post by Rymel » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:39 pm

care to elaborate on that? is it an issue of translating back to serial? give me something here other than that wonderfully detailed answer please.
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Post by khaag » Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:44 pm

What is this gamecube disk drive to hardrive mod you speak of?
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Post by Rymel » Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:14 pm

http://www.tehskeen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6040

it's not out yet, but they're saying soon. they had a thread prior to this showing the board they were developing but that used micro sd cards which is overall impractical, cool as it might be to have a wallet of micro sdhc cards rather than dvd-rs or an hdd.

i've asked on multiple forums and sites if anyone can tell me whether this serial to usb idea might work, with no answer so i might have to wait until they release this mod and see how they pulled theirs off and try and do the same on a ps2. i suspect it's using what the concept sd card board and most mod chips are using now, an actel fpga microprocessor chip. i hope not, cuz i don't know a damn thing about building circuits using microprocessors :cry:
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Post by nitro2k01 » Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:38 pm

Tom61's point is that USB-to-serial adapters only work as USB slaves. You can connect them to a USB host and get an extra serial port, but you can't connect them in reverse, since that means you have no USB host. To USB slaves can't communicate with each other.
And besides, serial can mean a lot of things. Serial just means the way the communication takes place (One channel of electrical data pulses) but the word serial in itself doesn't say anything about signal levels and encoding of the signal etc.
I don't know how the PS2 disc drive is conencted, but since you say so, I guess it's some sort of serial line. If so, it's probably some proprietary format, and that means there's probably no "naive" solution that works. (Naive=I'll just translate that signal and it'll work)
I'm not saying it's impossible, but judging from your description of the problem you'd probably need some sort of programmable logic to do the job, and of course the time and resources to program the logic.

That's my preliminary answer until someone can give more details about what interface the PSX and PS2 are using for their optical drives.
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Re: Serial-to-usb-to-usb hard drive = plausible jury rig?

Post by marshallh » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:02 pm

Rymel wrote:now i ask ye wise men of benheck.com forums...is this feasible/plausible, or am i totally talking out of my butt?
No, and no.
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Post by Rymel » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:05 pm

seems i cut that out of the original post. i'm aware that they'd probably need a host, so i was considering a microprocessor, which is generally the way to go in modchip design and the gamecube disc drive to hdd interface. but would an external hdd with usb on-the-go work, since it's technically a usb host?

i know serial can mean a lot of things, but for purposes of actually interfacing the wiring i was thinking of using an actual serial port since it'll make wiring and connecting/disconnecting easier (it's been a while but i think the ps2 laser's ribbon was 5 or 6 wires, much less than a serial ports...9?). i figured it's just an issue of communication, as you said, but that's not a problem of the hardware, that's software and that can be tackled later. right now i'm trying to see if the hardware can interface at all, otherwise there's no point in thinking of how to write the software. i'm also well aware there's no such thing as a simple plug and play operation on this. i'm not sure why everyone who's been in here so far thinks that's what i think it is. it's not like i made a basic post or anything. and if such a serial setup is workable, i'd just plug it straight into my pc and work from there.

so to sum it up, all i'm trying to do right now is get a proper hardware interface working. anything else that can be done software-side is being ignored UNTIL that part is handled. because it's absolutely pointless to until it can connect at all.

any suggestions would be great since so far the concensus is that it won't work, but judging by the short answers (especially from a mod. don't you know short answers don't explain jack?), i don't think i'm gonna get any. so much for a good community. i had good hopes for posting here too.
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Post by nitro2k01 » Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:21 pm

Rymel wrote:seems i cut that out of the original post. i'm aware that they'd probably need a host, so i was considering a microprocessor, which is generally the way to go in modchip design and the gamecube disc drive to hdd interface. but would an external hdd with usb on-the-go work, since it's technically a usb host?
I highly doubt your HDD has USB on-the-go support, at least not as a host. If it's a HD based media player, it might have, but still you need to make your own firmware for it, which includes finding hardware docs for the CPU and other components (Presumabely very hard since it's probably a proprietary format)
Rymel wrote:i know serial can mean a lot of things, but for purposes of actually interfacing the wiring i was thinking of using an actual serial port since it'll make wiring and connecting/disconnecting easier (it's been a while but i think the ps2 laser's ribbon was 5 or 6 wires, much less than a serial ports...9?).
So, there we have it. What's an "actual" serial port? RS-232? (That's what a PC normally uses.)
It is bad for two reasons.
1) It uses a signal voltage of 9-12 V, which will immediately kill your PS2 board. (Which is using 5 V or possibly 3.3 V)
2) It is far too slow to be useful for a CD interface. The maximum speed for RS-232 is about twice the speed of a 56k modem. Imagine loading a game at that speed.
Edit: A note about the serial port: Only three wires are actually needed for communication: Data wire one way, data wire the other way and a ground reference. The other 6 pins are just handshaking pins that are there because of tradition and are rarely used today. (Most serial null modem cables just connect these pins back in the same plug, or even just leave them unconnected)
Rymel wrote:i figured it's just an issue of communication, as you said, but that's not a problem of the hardware, that's software and that can be tackled later. right now i'm trying to see if the hardware can interface at all, otherwise there's no point in thinking of how to write the software.
Hrrm! It's very much a hardware problem since you don't even know which voltage or at which speed you're supposed to read the signal in the ribbon cable. And so on...
Rymel wrote:i'm also well aware there's no such thing as a simple plug and play operation on this. i'm not sure why everyone who's been in here so far thinks that's what i think it is. it's not like i made a basic post or anything. and if such a serial setup is workable, i'd just plug it straight into my pc and work from there.

so to sum it up, all i'm trying to do right now is get a proper hardware interface working. anything else that can be done software-side is being ignored UNTIL that part is handled. because it's absolutely pointless to until it can connect at all.

any suggestions would be great since so far the concensus is that it won't work, but judging by the short answers (especially from a mod. don't you know short answers don't explain jack?), i don't think i'm gonna get any. so much for a good community. i had good hopes for posting here too.
I'm going to be brutally honest with you. You're not up for this yet. Give this idea up for now. You don't have the knowledge you need about even basic electrical concepts.
Ergo, you have absoluely no chance of getting this done for at least a few years.
My suggestion is that you study electrical engineering at a university, which will take 4 years or so. That will give you the basic concepts you need to master to do this. Then you go for this particular problem which will take at least months of reverse engineering, reading dense technical datasheets and banging your head into the wall and wonder why it's not working. Then maybe on a sunny day you'll succeed.
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Post by Snow123 » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:26 am

My suggestion is that you study electrical engineering at a university, which will take 4 years or so. That will give you the basic concepts you need to master to do this. Then you go for this particular problem which will take at least months of reverse engineering, reading dense technical datasheets and banging your head into the wall and wonder why it's not working. Then maybe on a sunny day you'll succeed. :P :D

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Post by nitro2k01 » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:49 pm

Snow123 wrote:My suggestion is that you study electrical engineering at a university, which will take 4 years or so. That will give you the basic concepts you need to master to do this. Then you go for this particular problem which will take at least months of reverse engineering, reading dense technical datasheets and banging your head into the wall and wonder why it's not working. Then maybe on a sunny day you'll succeed. :P :D
That quote looks familiar. :D

Edit: It seems like Snow123 as well as moonmoon (Possibly the same person) exists only for the reason of spreading this referral link: hxxp://www.pqdvd.com/rd.php?n=2. (Http edited out on purpose) Maybe some mods should do something about this? Check "Find all posts" by both users and judge for yourselves.
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Post by Rymel » Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:26 am

i didn't bother replying since my question for help was pretty much met with "don't bother you can't do it" (which to me seems like its very much the opposite of what this forum is for, but hey what do i know about help and community?), but since i got a notification for an update, useless or not, i thought i'd say something now that i've relaxed a bit since then, in order of nitro's replies -

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817332005
i don't have to have an hdd with usb otg support, i can buy one. and i don't have to worry about all the crap you just pointed out because it's a standard for a reason. it'll act as a host because it's programmed to. i understand and acknowledge you know more than me, but c'mon, google a little bit. it will behave as it should, it's just making it do what i want that's the issue. but i already said it once - software is an issue i'll tackle after i figure out the hardware.

i should have been more specific about using a serial adapter - i only wanted to use it for ease of connecting the pinouts to the next part of the interface (saves me the trouble of having to read the datasheets on a usb interface to pin out cuz i'm gonna be as lazy as possible about it. there, i said it.). it also makes it easier to swap out a part should i burn something out. i'm well aware it's way too slow when compared to a disc drive. and why wouldn't i limit the voltage down to a ps2's voltage? that's just silly to ignore.

edit: hell, why am i even explaining this part? if it's going from the rewired ribbons into a serial adapter that's not even used for serial, and is going straight into usb, serial speed is a non-issue. it's merely being used to make interfacing easier. i only thought of that to save me the trouble of learning how to change that ribbon into a usb plug and save me some bucks in prototyping.

i may not know the signal voltage in the ribbon cable, but like you said ps2 voltage isn't that high, and the most it could possibly ever be throughout the system is 12v, which it very much isn't. like you said it's probably 3.3v or 5v. there's always using a volt meter to figure it out. or guess and risk burning out a motherboard finding out (which in my own and my engineering professor's opinion, if it don't smoke, spark or generally do something, good or bad, you're not really working on it). either way, you totally skirted answering me, again. maybe you really don't know anything to help me and you're just being a sarcastic bastard. i could be wrong though. and i still believe it's just a software problem after figuring out hardware interfacing. when i said jury rig, i meant it. it doesn't have to be pretty, compact, or anything. so long as it does the job. streamlining it can come later. y'know, after you get it to work. i fully expect anything i work out to be disgustingly sloppy. but hey, so long as it works.

i'm not giving up this idea simply because someone said i should. that's...retarded. and you know it. now telling me i don't know anything? that's immature. you could have said what you think could be done to make it work, but instead you chose to sit back and try and belittle me? that's big of you. elitism on a forum based on kitbashing is incredibly stupid. i'm well aware i'm in way over my head, but i don't see anyone with the knowledge required doing anything along these lines. so it's gotta start somewhere. to think i could do this without having to do the things you said is unfathomable, and why you'd think i was thinking i could do this without having to read technical datasheets, reverse engineer and bang my head on the desk (mostly the latter) i have no idea. and to be completely frank since you felt you could be, it won't be a sunny day when i figure it out. it'll probably be dark and many hours, days or years from the point i started. and i'll be more tired and miserable than happy i did it. but at least i'm taking the first steps. which is so far more than what i'm finding, here and elsewhere.

since all i've gotten are negative answers so far and very little constructive, i'll put it out there now - if it's not something useful or conducive to trying to make this work, STUFF IT. constructive criticism and advice only. kthxbi.
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Post by timmeh87 » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:19 am

No offense dude, but you basically started with a really long question along the lines of "how can I cram the triangle shape into the circle hole". A bunch of people told you it wasnt possible, but you have just gotten more and more defensive of your flawed idea.

No one here is trying to be mean or anything but we get hundreds of questions like this a month, and no one is obligated to give you paragraphs of response about something that, in the end, is pretty inconsequential.

Now if you had asked about plugging a USB device into the USB port there might have been some answers out there, but you originally asked about removing the disc drive possibly (there are more than one ribbon cable in the ps2, this wasnt very clear), soldering on a usb-serial bridge, which only works to create a virtual serial port for the host (ie. its backwards), and then connect that to a hard drive.

Without going into much more detail, you really cant just slap two different electronic devices together like that. Even with a "microcontroller" in there, you would probably fail.

A /TEAM/ of people has been working on replacing the gamecube disc drive with an /FPGA/, this seems to be similar to what you want. You actually mentioned it in your first post. As you can see, its not easy.

So my suggestion to you, is to learn a lot more about everything, scour google for some other solution to your problem (ie, a hack to use emulation with an already existing hard drive solution), and make your portable anyways, with a disc drive.
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Post by bicostp » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:43 am

<img src="http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9286 ... ey1ti3.gif">

You can hook up a USB port to the serial lines on the Gamecube motherboard, but it's not going to know how to process the signals that are flying back and forth. You're going to have to either write up some code and burn it to an IC, or find a logic circuit that can do this by itself. Basically you're asking someone from France to speak Japanese, somehow expecting a paper towel tube to translate back and forth.

It doesn't matter if the USB device acts as a host or not if the devices don't understand each other.

Besides, can't some boot disc let the Gamecube load disk images off a PC on the network?

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