Zune or iPod?

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Zune or iPod?

Post by jones » Sat May 03, 2008 10:52 pm

So yeah. I've decided to take the plunge on an MP3 player after all this time. I've narrowed it down to the 80GB versions of the Zune and iPod Classic.

I know the iPod Touch is nice, but I could really care less about being able to browse the Internet or get my e-mail from the device I'm looking to buy. The Touch can only be used for that at wi-fi "hotspots" anyway so it would be of even less use for me. Plus, the 16GB version costs $150 more than the Zune or iPod Classic.

I'm looking for good sound feedback/advice on these units from any of you who have experience with them in any way, shape, or form.

I have no interest in this turning into an MS vs. Apple flamefest either, so please let's keep it civil. :)

Any suggestions and advice is appreciated. Thanks.

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Post by Triton » Sat May 03, 2008 11:35 pm

i like my 30gb zune but the zune software is a steaming pile of microsoft product, nuff said (its really really bad) BUT there are alternatives! sort of, you have to have the zune crap installed but you can use a program to foce the zune to sync with other applications

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Post by jones » Sun May 04, 2008 12:00 am

Hey Triton... What are the drawbacks to the Zune software?

I downloaded it tonight and have been playing around with it. Seems pretty cool so far, but then again I obviously haven't had to sync anything with it yet. :wink:

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Post by CronoTriggerfan » Sun May 04, 2008 12:14 am

You may want to reconsider an iPod Touch. Sure, they can do WiFi and all that jazz, but they can also be easily jailbroken (softmodded) to do so much more, like read eBooks, PDFs, be custom-skinned, crank out and read word documents, emulate NES/SNES/GBA/PSX, etc. as well as play a load of fun homebrew games. There's just so many cool apps to play with once you jailbreak, it's very addicting. Not to mention the screen is very nice, great for watching videos. Though you may not think the WiFi is a big deal now, after you start using it, you realize the applications for it aren't as limited as you might think.

...that being said, however, iTunes is a horrible program. Media management is awkward, you have to re-import your library each time a new update comes out, it's a high RAM allocation program, you can only sync your iPod with one iTunes library at a time, the list goes on. I've had it crash on me numerous times, and each time, my entire library had to be re-imported manually. One of these times it even corrupted my iPod's firmware, so I had to format it, re-update the firmware, re-jailbreak it (optional, of course, that one's a personal choice), rebuild my library, and manually re-subscribe to all my podcasts. A bit much, no?

But speaking of podcasts, they're a definite reason iPods have the edge over most everything else out there. Updating and adding them is so easy, and the sheer volume of content is just dumbfounding. I get my video game fix with EGM, Retronauts, 8 bit and beyond, Screwattack, and of course, Benheck, and stay up to date on current events with Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, Sean Hannity, Fox News, Dennis Prager, Laura Ingraham, and others. Oh wait, that's not even-keel at all. Erm, I listen to Al Franken, too. Yeah, that should cover it. :lol:

I'd say it breaks down like this: iPod Touch > Zune > iPod Classic. Unless, of course, podcasting and multimedia becomes a big deal, in which case I'd say the shortcomings and hassles of iTunes can be disregarded for the most part. I think the new Zunes are really sweet, and the interface is great as well. Each have their strengths and weaknesses, so it ultimately comes down to what fits you best. Good luck deciding! :P

EDIT: Another crappy thing about iTunes I forgot to mention is that it comes with loads of other Apple junk in the install. It makes you install Quicktime, and all new updates of iTunes are now called "Apple Software Packs", which force-install Quicktime if you took it off, as well as Safari. Talk about badgering. Oh, and earlier this year, they came out with this "Software Update" for the iPod Touch that gave it all the functions of the iPhone (which should have been done in the first place, IMO) and then charged $20 for it. If that's not stupid enough, for a month after the release, the update reminder would sit on your screen and not let you sync your iPod until you bought it. :roll: You had to disconnect from the internet to get rid of the message, connect your iPod, sync it, then reconnect. Yeah, stupid. And after all was said and done, Apple said the situation was an "unfortunate error" or some crap like that. Screw you, Steve Jobs!
Last edited by CronoTriggerfan on Sun May 04, 2008 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Triton » Sun May 04, 2008 12:14 am

i just hate it, its a pain in the ass to use in my opinion, its overly hard to edit metadata (id3 tags and such) if not impossible, it doesnt sort worth a crap, its bloated and stupid and ONLY runs on XP SP2 and above, and vista support is still shoddy at best (not that i care). the hardware i LOVE my zune, its a great mp3 player! i was to the point that i was going to sell it because i hated the software that much, the ONLY time i ever use it is to sync my zune

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Post by DK » Sun May 04, 2008 2:33 am

Have you had a look at the Archos 605 Wifi? Much better than the iPod or Zune.

About the same price as the 80gig iPod but has a high def touchscreen and the internet. 8) Bit bulky though, but I have big pockets so it doesn't matter.
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Post by sgtpepper » Sun May 04, 2008 5:12 am

CronoTriggerfan wrote: ...that being said, however, iTunes is a horrible program. Media management is awkward, you have to re-import your library each time a new update comes out, it's a high RAM allocation program, you can only sync your iPod with one iTunes library at a time, the list goes on. I've had it crash on me numerous times, and each time, my entire library had to be re-imported manually. One of these times it even corrupted my iPod's firmware, so I had to format it, re-update the firmware, re-jailbreak it (optional, of course, that one's a personal choice), rebuild my library, and manually re-subscribe to all my podcasts. A bit much, no?

EDIT: Another crappy thing about iTunes I forgot to mention is that it comes with loads of other Apple junk in the install. It makes you install Quicktime, and all new updates of iTunes are now called "Apple Software Packs", which force-install Quicktime if you took it off, as well as Safari. Talk about badgering. Oh, and earlier this year, they came out with this "Software Update" for the iPod Touch that gave it all the functions of the iPhone (which should have been done in the first place, IMO) and then charged $20 for it. If that's not stupid enough, for a month after the release, the update reminder would sit on your screen and not let you sync your iPod until you bought it. :roll: You had to disconnect from the internet to get rid of the message, connect your iPod, sync it, then reconnect. Yeah, stupid. And after all was said and done, Apple said the situation was an "unfortunate error" or some crap like that. Screw you, Steve Jobs!
Not trying to insight any kind of flame-war, but you seem to be a civil person, so I don't think you'll take my following corrections personally.

First of all, you are greatly exaggerating some of iTunes' flaws, especially when it is compared to the alternatives (namely, Microsoft's bloatware Zune software). To address the truth in each of your statements, I will break them down into bullets ... err dashes.

- You are simply wrong about having to re-import your library after updating iTunes, I'm not sure where you're coming from with that, but I'm quite sure I could help you with the issue you are having.*
- As far as RAM usage, I rarely have iTunes using over 100 MB of RAM at the very most, it typically averages around 60 MB. I guess it really depends on how much total RAM you have (I have 1.5 GB) as well as what OS you're running (I'm running Leopard)
-You can manually sync your iPod with as many iTunes libraries as you want, but you can only automatically sync your iPod with one library at a time. So that is admittedly an inconvenience, but by no means a deal breaker (the legal reasoning behind it makes it justifiable IMO)
-As far as the crashes go, I'm assuming that those are limited to the Windows version of iTunes, sorry dude, I don't have that problem. However, having to re-import your library sounds like an issue that can be fixed, regardless of the crashing*
-Sorry you don't like Quicktime, but it is the media engine behind iTunes, so therefor a necessary thing. You actually using Quicktime itself is completely up to you, but it's not like the 50 MB it takes up are particularly devastating to your HD.
-Apple instated the use of an auto-updater in order to aid less tech-savvy people such as ourselves, so that when they perhaps bought a new iPod that required the latest iTunes, they would already be updated.
-On that note, however, you are absolutely right about Apple over-stepping their bounds by automatically installing Safari via their software update. Here is my recommendation, from the mouth of a true Apple fanboy: DO NOT USE SAFARI FOR WINDOWS. It is utterly crap as of right now, I have no qualms in saying so.
-You are also right about Apple badgering you about the $20 iPod Touch update, can't defend them there either :roll:

*The possible issue that I think you might be having is an issue of iTunes preference setting. Go to the iTunes preference pane, select the "advanced" tab at the top. The first checkmark box should be "Keep iTunes Music folder organized" and the second should be "Copy files to iTunes Music folder when adding to library." If both of these are checked, then iTunes can operate much more smoothly, by way of keeping all of its own files organized so that as long as you don't modify the designated iTunes music folder, iTunes doesn't randomly annihilate your library. The second box, if checked, automatically copies anything you add to your iTunes library to the designated iTunes Music Folder. That way, if you were to open an MP3 from the desktop in iTunes, you could then trash the file from the desktop, knowing that iTunes has already put a copy in its designated folder. A bit of a strange system, but it works quite smoothly if you're willing to comply. Oh, and if up until this point you HAVE NOT had iTunes organizing all your media into its own file structure, and you are taking my advice, you'll want to "consolidate your library" after clicking those checkmark boxes. If you have any questions, PM me!

On the subject of the iPod/Zune debacle, aside from their respective software counterparts, they are quite similar in features, with the clear advantage of the Zune being that if you want a subscription service, the Zune offers that. The advantage of the iPod Classic is its phenomenal battery life (better than Apple's estimates, surprisingly), and its popular (and patented!) interface/clickwheel that people largely seem to enjoy. Other than that, color choice only seems to be a selling point with teenage girls, so I think that's a rather moot point :P
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Post by Negative_Creep » Sun May 04, 2008 5:34 am

Well... it depends. Zune is def. cheaper than an iPod.

The iPod has commercial value and it's a fashion item, although I doubt that will really swerve your decision much. The Zune has terrible software, but it plays videos better than iPod and has a MUCH larger screen (although it isn't widescreen afaik).

Basically they both do the same thing, there isn't really that much more advantages of one over the other :P

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Post by Sparkfist » Sun May 04, 2008 6:49 am

If you go with a iPod, buy a case for it when you buy it. I own two and both have scratches on their screens because I didn't buy cases for them when I bought them. My Nano's case is some cheap-o leather one from Ebay for about $10 (came with a car charger). So keep that in mind

As for Zune vs iPod..... Sotfware alone I would have to say that you should go with iPod. Zune has a lot of DRM. I can't argue that if you buy iTunes music it has DRM on that too, but at least you can just dump music on the iPod no problem.
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Post by Black Six » Sun May 04, 2008 7:30 am

CTF, I have to agree with sgtpepper that most of your complaints seem like bull and that your problem with re-importing your library is likely operator error. One thing I will concede is that the Windows version does seem to use more memory than the Mac one, especially when the little taskbar background app is running. Still, it's never enough to slow down my system unless I'm doing a lot of other things at the same time.

Generally though, I find the interface to be intuitive and useful and enjoy using it. The same goes for the iPod interface. I bought my most recent iPod in the Fall of 2006 and it's been working fine and not giving me any issues.

I have no experience with the Zune, but what I usually hear is that the actual Zune interface is nice but that the software isn't (as Triton mentioned).
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Post by bicostp » Sun May 04, 2008 10:20 am

Note: I'm generally in agreement with sgtpepper, but I'm a Windows user so I'll add that aspect to the argument.

If all you really want is a device for music and don't care about videos, go for an iPod Classic.

In my experience, iTunes pisses all over the Zune software. The Zune's program feels like the radioactive spawn of IE 7 and Media Player 11. The store is also a bit more intuitive to use, and I haven't seen any Zune gift cards in the stores, while iTunes gift cards are everywhere. (If you don't want to tie a credit card to the system.)

iTunes does not use a gigantic amount of memory when it's running (Firefox is a much hungrier resource hog), and when it's not you only have ituneshelper.exe and ipodservice.exe running in the background, which together use a whole 9 MB of RAM.

Of course iTunes requires QuickTime; it uses it as its media system. It does not, however, require Safari for Windows. Just un-check it in the Apple updater and it won't install. And it's not like having QuickTime is going to kill your system.

I have a 2nd gen Nano and it does everything I need it to. 2 gigs is plenty for several CDs worth of music. (I have everything ripped to about 192k/sec VBR MP3s and it's got about 300 songs on it. If I didn't have any of the podcast episodes loaded on it that number would be up to 600 or so.)

Safari for Windows still needs a lot of work, but it's not like there aren't any other browsers out there besides IE. Pick up a copy of Opera or Firefox.

I've tried various Zunes, and to be honest, Apple puts a lot more effort into fit-and-finish than Microsoft does. My Nano worked right out of the box, and loading music onto it is as simple as dragging the files onto iTunes. One guy in one of my classes had to fight with his Zune for a couple days before it worked properly. You might say "but it costs more than X!". It costs more for the same reason a Cadillac costs more than a Chevy. (Or a Lincoln to a Ford, if that's your thing.)

If you get an iPod, get a hard plastic case for it. Griffin made the two-piece plastic shell I got, and it covers everything but the switch, dock and headphone ports, and touch wheel with about 5mm of hard plastic. It's worth the extra few bucks it costs because any scratches it may suffer (junk in your pockets, falls, etc.) can be easily buffed out with automotive scratch remover.

Don't waste your time with anything other than iPods or Zunes. My cousin has gone through 3 or 4 Sandisk MP3 players in the same time I've had my Nano, which more than ate up the price savings he boasted about in the beginning. The build quality just isn't there. As the old saying goes, you get what you pay for.

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Post by jones » Sun May 04, 2008 12:41 pm

Ugh! Decisions... Decisions... LOL

I appreciate all of the feedback thus far. It has been really helpful.

I figure I should add a little bit more information to give some background on where I'm coming from and what might be of importance to me.

My main motivation for buying this is because I have decided to *gasp* get a fitness club membership and in doing so I figure I'm going to need to be able to take some tunes with me. I also would like to take it bike riding when the need arises. So I guess I'm mainly looking for a portable music player above anything else.

As far as video and what not. I figure that is a nice to have, but I could see times where I would like to have it (I guess this would tip things toward the Zune). It isn't a dealbreaker, but it is a definite consideration.

The marketplace stuff isn't a huge thing for me either. This is the guy who has never bought a song online talking after all. :) I am curious about it, but it isn't a huge consideration for me. I was looking at the Zune Marketplace last night and they say they have over 3 million songs available and over 1 million of those are DRM-free. In my limited browsing, I couldn't see any sort of indicator to tell me what was DRM-free and what wasn't so that seems like a bit of a crapshoot.

I imagine that if I did decide to buy music online I could just buy my music through Amazon (DRM-free) and then import them into the software for whichever MP3 player I go with, right? I do have 400+ CDs that will be getting ripped and finding a home on this thing so that should keep me busy for awhile. :)

As far as the feedback thus far goes...

I have to admit that the iPod Touch is a nice piece of hardware. Ben has one and I have checked it out for a few minutes here and there. Pretty cool. My main issue with it is the small amount of memory it has. The 8GB costs $50 more than the 80GB versions of the iPod Classic and Zune. If you go to the 16GB (which has an amount of memory I could probably live with) the price jumps to $400. That jump in price seems a bit steep. Especially when one considers that to go to the 32GB version is $500. To go from 8GB to 16GB is a $100 jump and from 16GB to 32GB is a $100 jump. That doesn't add up.

The jailbreaking stuff sounds cool, but I honestly can't see myself using it much if at all. The ability to play games and stuff on it seems like something I would get more use out of if I had a hacked PSP (which I don't).

It seems like from what a lot of people are saying it boils down to which program a person prefers. I've used iTunes in the past and thought it was a fine enough program. Bloated, but it was fairly easy to use and it did what it needed to do.

Last night I downloaded the Zune software and have been using it. I have to say that I like it even though it seems fairly bloated as well. The interface seems simpler and more straightforward than iTunes in my opinion. As far as the look of the software. I am a bit of a style whore anyway (I am a Depalma fan after all. LOL) so it doesn't bother me.

I did notice that I imported The Downward Spiral by NIN into the Zune software last night and for some reason it said that the album was from 2004 (it is actually from 1994). I couldn't find a way to change this from within the Zune software (sounds like what Triton was getting at). So that was annoying. From what I've read you have to alter it outside of the program. If memory serves it seems that this was not an issue with iTunes.

So I guess it is kind of a wash as far as the software goes overall. They both seem to have their strengths and weaknesses.

I guess one thing that nobody has mentioned yet is sound quality. To me this is one of the more important factors in this. Since it is a music player first and foremost. Are they pretty much the same, or does one of them hold an edge in this category?

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions and feedback!

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Post by GoldenfrankO » Sun May 04, 2008 12:42 pm

I don't have either but I choose Ipod, Because you can emulate NES, nd gameboy on it.
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Post by jperryss » Sun May 04, 2008 12:53 pm

I put off getting a high-capacity player for some time, but finally started looking around again a few months ago.

I ended up with an 80GB ipod classic and have been very happy with it (note that I was anti-ipod for a long time :D). I got it for $230 from www.bhphotovideo.com.

Once you get used to iTunes, it's VERY easy to keep all your music organized (tags, track #s, etc) which was a big issue for my 65GB of music ;). And I've never had to re-import my library.

I've never used it for video, and I don't plan to.

Also, I HIGHLY recommend picking up one of these if you want to protect it without adding any bulk.
http://www.bestskinsever.com/servlet/StoreFront

These will make your ipod 100% scratchproof and are nearly invisible once installed. The chrome back of the ipod typically scratches very easily.

I have one on my WM phone also, they work great. They're a little tricky to install, but once they're on, they work excellent.

EDIT: As far as sound quality goes....I haven't 'tested' enough players to tell you if the difference is significant, but IMO your headphones choice will play a MUCH bigger role in how good your music sounds. The stock headphones you get with pretty much any player are not very good, ESPECIALLY the ipod ones.

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Post by bicostp » Sun May 04, 2008 1:02 pm

jones wrote:My main motivation for buying this is because I have decided to *gasp* get a fitness club membership
Why? Just park farther away from the building at work and take the stairs. Run around the block a few times. You don't really need fancy equipment.
As far as video and what not. I figure that is a nice to have, but I could see times where I would like to have it (I guess this would tip things toward the Zune). It isn't a dealbreaker, but it is a definite consideration.
All the iPod models out now (with the obvious exception of the Shuffle) do video. The difference is the screen size. Both the Classic and the Zune have 320x240 screens, but the Classic's is an inch smaller and has a higher dot pitch. I have a Dell Axim PDA and its screen is just about the same as the Zune's, and really another inch smaller doesn't make much of a difference for the occasional video. A smaller dot pitch doe,s however, make text clearer on the screen because it's harder to discern the individual pixels.

The marketplace stuff isn't a huge thing for me either. This is the guy who has never bought a song online talking after all. :) I am curious about it, but it isn't a huge consideration for me. I was looking at the Zune Marketplace last night and they say they have over 3 million songs available and over 1 million of those are DRM-free. In my limited browsing, I couldn't see any sort of indicator to tell me what was DRM-free and what wasn't so that seems like a bit of a crapshoot.
That's what I liked about the iTunes store. You can just go down to Target and pick up a $15 card for the odd song purchase. (Say, you're looking for a song from a movie soundtrack but don't want to buy the whole CD, or are only after a single.) The credit doesn't expire, and it's not tied to you in any way aside from an email address. DRM-free songs aren't hard to find; they're all listed as "iTunes Plus".

I don't get why DRM is such a big deal. The music tracks are at a high bitrate already, and if you burn and rip them on rewritable CDs at a high bit rate they sound exactly the same. (No, that's not that big a deal if you're not constantly buying music online.)
The jailbreaking stuff sounds cool, but I honestly can't see myself using it much if at all. The ability to play games and stuff on it seems like something I would get more use out of if I had a hacked PSP (which I don't).
Basically the jailbreaking just turns it into the iNewton. (Remember those? :P) Yes, it can play NES, SNES, Genesis, and Gameboy games just fine, but so can my Windows Mobile PDA (which didn't need any softmodding to run third-party software).
I guess one thing that nobody has mentioned yet is sound quality. To me this is one of the more important factors in this. Since it is a music player first and foremost. Are they pretty much the same, or does one of them hold an edge in this category?
From what I've heard, they've both got about the same signal-to-noise ratio. You have to be in a pretty quiet room and have very good headphones to hear the difference.

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